Nothing Left Unsaid
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Nothing Left Unsaid
Nothing Left Unsaid on ICE, Phoenix PD, and people power with Ben from Poder in Action
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This week, we’re joined by Ben Laughlin, Co-Director of Poder in Action. Ben is a Phoenix-based community organizer focused on immigrants’ rights, police accountability, and liberation & justice work. We talk about how Ben got their start in this work, and the current landscape of police accountability work under Trump’s mass deportation agenda. From the arrest-to-deportation pipeline, to practicing a better world–you won’t want to miss this.
Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Nothing Left Unsaid. I'm your host, Abigail, and I'm very excited to be here today with Ben Laughlin. They are the co-director of Pod Air in Action. Thanks so much for being here today, Ben.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02So to start off, I would love if you could tell me a little bit about your background and Pod Air in Action's mission.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Let's see. I uh I grew up in rural Iowa, a town of like 600 people. Um I left there when I was 18, uh, bounced around a bit and then landed in Arizona in 2009. Um and uh, you know, really um started getting into this work and getting politicized because of SP-1070 and the resistance to it. Um and, you know, uh moved to Phoenix in 2014 and volunteered with uh with Puente for many years and got to work on the Boston Pio campaign and uh you know a few different things. Um and then started working with Polder in 2018. Um and uh yeah, Polder is uh we're a base-building organization, um uh meaning like uh we're doing everything we can to grow the number of people that are involved in this fight for liberation, um for justice. And um we work primarily at the intersection of immigration and immigration and policing. Um, do a lot of our work at the city of Phoenix, um trying to uh get money moved from the police department into the resources we actually need to be able to thrive, um, and trying to uh get um changes made at the city to uh increase police accountability. Um and right now, currently um pushing them to do better around their policies around ICE.
SPEAKER_02Y'all do amazing work. Um thank you so much for sharing a little more. How would you kind of on that note, um, how would you describe the history of policing in the Phoenix Police Department generally and as and specifically its relationship with immigrant communities?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean Phoenix Police uh I think you know is well known now. They've they have a long history of violence. Um, you know, many, many decades uh people have been fighting um for reforms in that police department for changes um and to you know to end the the level of violence that they've been committing against uh communities, um, especially communities of color and and poor folks in particular. Um and you know, we've seen um in recent years, uh in the last, let's see, last like 13 years, they've been the most violent police department in the country um many uh many years in a row. And uh, you know, in 20 uh 21, um, you know, the DOJ came here to investigate, the Department of Justice came here to investigate uh the violence and the racial profiling um and the you know different ways that um the police department's been violating community members' civil rights. Um that investigation ended in uh 2024, and you know, there were five primary areas where um the Department of Justice found civil rights violations, um, and particularly once again around racial profiling, um unsheltered community, uh use of force and some other things. Um and we've seen, you know, over the years, uh, you know, Phoenix Police hasn't had a an official collaboration with ICE um, you know, through like a 287G contract in many, many years. But um, you know, we're seeing all the ways um, you know, that they still are putting people into the hands of ICE um every day. Um Phoenix Police has uh um Operations Order 4.48, which is um basically the implementation of SB 1070. When SB 1070 passed, um, local police departments had to figure out what does that mean for us to implement, you know, in in our police department. And and so Phoenix has 4.48. And um, you know, there's been a lot of work for many years um by organizations um to uh try to um uh make 4.48 less racist, less violent for folks. Um, you know, there was uh the the first several years that 4.48 was implemented, um, it included things like, you know, reasonable suspicion for pulling someone over and asking about immigration status was things like um, you know, are they standing on corners where day laborers usually stand? Are they wearing baggy clothes? Uh do they have Spanish radio bumper stickers on their car? So things are just like profile, blatant racial profiling. Yep, absolutely. And so in 2017, that you know, um 4.48 was overhauled to remove a lot of that language, but we know um, you know, that in the years since 2017, Phoenix police have continued to call ICE um, you know, uh thousands of times. Um they've uh continue to put people in the hands of ICE through Fourth Avenue jail um and uh you know continue to racially profile and and you know use extreme violence against community members on a regular basis.
SPEAKER_02And they claim that they um they they don't coordinate with ICE, is that right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um the the city is adamant about the fact that they do not collaborate um is the language they use, and and that's because um they don't have this 287G agreement, but but what we know is that um you know Phoenix Police Phoenix Police plays a huge role in the the arrest to deportation pipeline, right? That um every single time they arrest somebody uh they take them to Fourth Avenue jail and um ICE is waiting inside Fourth Avenue jail. So, you know, that results in hundreds of uh thousands of people every year coming into contact with ICE. And, you know, um if someone has more of a vulnerable status, that can, you know, uh easily result in, you know, immigration detainer and and being taken to ICE, into ICE custody.
SPEAKER_02Um for some of our listeners who may not be as familiar with what the arrest or deportation pipeline is, could you just share a little bit more about that um and what it looks like for communities here?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. Um so it you know it starts with starts with an arrest um by a local police department. So for example, a Phoenix police um you know pulls you over for something like a cracked windshield or um you know any other variety of uh things they're criminalizing folks for. Um, you know, we see uh, you know, if they find it find an excuse, come up with an excuse for an arrest in that situation, then they take people and um they get booked at Fourth Avenue Jail, which is a Maricopa County Sheriff's Office jail. Um, but that is that is where folks go. And many other police departments in the valley also take folks to Maricopa County, Fourth Avenue Jail. Phoenix isn't the only one, but they're the biggest one and bringing in the most people. Um and from there, um, like I said, ICE uh has a desk at Fourth Avenue um and asks everyone uh that comes through um about their immigration status. And so um uh if you know if someone comes through and they determine that uh think for whatever reason, you know, usually based on racial profiling where, you know, where people grew up, right? Um that they are um in the country without uh proper paperwork, then um they get put on uh an ICE detainer um and that allows ICE to come and pick them up from the Fourth Avenue jail and take them to the ICE um uh uh headquarters uh on Central. And so um when we talk about the arrest to deportation pipeline, what we're talking about is literally like you know, from the moment someone comes into gets into an interaction with police that leads to an arrest, um, taken to the Fourth Avenue jail, and then they're coming into contact with ICE right there, and that is leading to you know hundreds of deportations every year.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha. So they're claiming they're not coordinating, but they've got a whole cubicle set up for them. Yeah. So it sounds like they play the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office plays a pretty big role in facilitating ICE operations. I'm wondering what we can do at the city level to disrupt the pipeline.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I think there's a you know, there's a few things. I think um, you know, one thing is just that relationship between the city of Phoenix and um and the county, right? Uh City of Phoenix gives the county um millions of dollars every year uh to book people into uh Fourth Avenue jail. And one thing the city could be doing is saying, hey, we're your biggest funder for your jail system. Uh we don't want ICE in your in this jail anymore. We don't want our community members to come into contact, you know, when they're arrested and and um to come into contact with ICE and uh you know could be putting pressure because Maricopa County also does not have a 2A7G agreement, they just let ICE be in their jails. Um and so one thing is you know the city could be using their leverage um to uh force ICE out of Maricopa County jail. Uh the more um uh you know, the I think better thing for um, or not better thing, but uh, you know, one important way um is like we don't want anybody getting arrested and going into jail. Like we're trying to, you know, reduce incarceration um at at all costs. And I think one of the things is um the city could be implementing um site and release policies so rather than arrests. Um one of the things that Boldair and other partner organizations fought for in 2025 and you know will continue fighting for is the resolution for thriving communities, which was uh uh focused on three things. It was implementing site and release, um, so giving citations rather than arrest, which keeps people out of going out of fourth um uh from going into Fourth Avenue jail. Um, banning pretextual traffic stops, which is um, you know, banning those stops that often are about racial profiling that are things like um, like I said earlier, cracked windshields, broken tail lights, the little light bulb above your license plate being out, um, those all all those things um, you know, uh can lead to um uh lead to uh you know lead to arrest. Um and the DOJ report was very, very clear that the people being impacted by traffic stops, you know, is disproportionately people of color, black folks, indigenous folks, and and uh Latinx communities. Um and then the third piece of this um of resolution for thriving communities was um also a ban on those stops that are about criminalizing quality of life. So um, you know, or criminalizing poverty is another way to think about it. So those stops that are like, you know, someone sleeping on a bus stop, um, someone's, you know, uh urinating an alley, something like that. Um, those uh DOJ report also showed really clearly that those were pieces that were where racial profiling is happening, you know, at extensive levels. Um, you know, once again, black, uh indigenous brown folks being targeted um, you know, for uh for that criminalization of of like trying to survive, right? Um and yeah, so I think there's you know, there's those couple of things, right? City can use their leverage to force ICE out of MCSO. Um the city could implement site and release, which would keep people from coming into contact with uh into contact with ICE at um at Fourth Av, uh banning those pretextual stops and the quality of um life criminalization. Um stops would all keep uh uh people from coming out of uh coming into contact with ICE.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha. Um I'm wondering what what like what was what was the outcome of the I remember the DOJ report coming out and is there anything that's like kind of been done to address the findings in that report?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So um uh one of the things that Trump did when in the first like six months he came into office, right, uh the second time was um he closed down all the open um investigations into local police departments by the DOJ and not only like closed them down, but if any of them had reports out, like the city of Phoenix, they retracted those reports. So, you know, officially that that report get rid of it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So officially that report like no longer exists, right? Um, but we all know that it exists and and community members that have been saying for decades like this stuff is happening, um, you know, the deal we never needed the DOJ to come and tell folks that um because people community members have been saying that for years um and fighting back against those things for years, but you know, it was uh proof and validation um for those things. And um, so anyways, the you know, the city of Phoenix uh, you know, made a big show um a few months later, you know, saying, you know, we're still gonna, you know, um keep moving forward with the types of changes that the city that the police department needs to be making. But um unfortunately, you know, and this has just been the case over and over and over again, is that the changes that are getting made at the police department, the the reforms that are getting made are, you know, often about um putting more officers in, you know, in neighborhoods in the name of building trust or building community trust, right? Which just increases criminalization, increases racial profiling, increases arrest. Um, you know, a lot of those things are about data collection, which is important, um, but is not like a proactive measure um to protect community members from police and ICE. Um, you know, and and so what we would love to see is, you know, is for the city um to you know pass the measures in the resolution, like I said earlier. Um, but also, you know, they have the opportunity, and this has been recommended by multiple task force and reform committees that the city has had, um, that they need to um decriminalize uh multiple issues related to you know quality of life um things and and also um you know uh there's many ways in which this the city of Phoenix criminalizes folks beyond what the state requires. And so the city of Phoenix could choose, you know, to um remove those statutes that are criminalizing folks beyond what the state requires. Um and and they without you know having to interact with the state, they can they can do that, right? They love to put the blame on the county or on the state as to why they can't do things. Um, but there's actually like a lot of things they could be doing.
SPEAKER_02Pointing fingers at everybody else.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Um you kind of talked about this a little bit, but uh what changes have we seen in ICE enforcement tactics under this current Trump 2.0 regime?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you know, um most folks have seen what happened in Minneapolis, in Chicago, in DC, in New Orleans, like these different places that, you know, LA, of course, that have um, you know, been under extreme attack um from the Trump administration, whether that's you know, ICE or the National Guard, you know, uh Marines or you know, all these uh different f uh bodies that you know have been used to attack communities. Um and I think uh, you know, uh there's uh organizations here, you know, like Ponte and Semias and A and HPI that are you know holding rapid response work and and hotline rapid response hotlines, things like that. Um and doing uh polymegro watch. And I think what you know what I've heard and learned from them is you know, a lot of and and from what we've heard from community members is the ICE enforcement here is looking not so much like you know, um uh like massive raids or saturation, like um saturation in a way to, you know, um uh attack a lot of people all at once, um, in the way that they have in other places, but you know, is looking like um really uh uh targeted kind of like snatch and grab like kidnappings, right? Where they're going after somebody and anybody else that's around, you know, taking them to, but they're trying to do it as quick as possible to make sure that you know community members can't intervene. Gotcha. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Now that makes sense. Um I'm in a couple of those chats, and it seems like if you don't show up to the location they send, like within a few minutes, like they're gone.
SPEAKER_00They're gone. Yeah. Yep. You know, many organizations are doing a ton of work, training up thousands of people in Meteor Watch and know your rights, and that, you know, that work is really critical. Um, and also is like limited um in the sense that you know this administration doesn't care about people's rights, you know. And so we also have to be um, you know, figuring out other ways that we're protecting each other, keeping each other safe, protecting ourselves. Um, you know, and I think uh a lot of organizations, ourselves included, are turning to, you know, a tactic that's been used many times in Arizona over the years and across the world, which is um, you know, this idea of uh neighborhood defense committees or you know, and um and uh you know we see the way that we like keep ourselves safe is is by organizing, right? Um we want to know our neighbors, uh authoritarianism thrives on isolation. And so, you know, doing this work of of breaking down isolation, of of building strong neighborhood networks, of getting trained up in, you know, in things like know your rights and polymeter watch on a block by block basis, like those are all like critical um pieces to you know keeping each other safe. As you mentioned, like, you know, the way that ICE is carrying out enforcement here is is happens at such a quick pace. It's so hard to, you know, be able to respond through the the networks. But um, you know, if our neighborhoods are trained up block by block, you know, then we'll we'll be able to make those interventions when when it's needed. Um and I think that, you know, we're really digging deep uh as Fulaire, like into um training each other up as organizers. Um, and because we we see that it's so critical in this moment to scale up the the you know the number of people that are in this fight, um that you know are understanding themselves as having a stake in, you know, in fighting for liberation and you know, and a stake in fighting against authoritarianism, a stake in, you know, fighting against ICE and police violence and state violence and other forms. And so um, you know, we're doing a lot of political education, a lot of skill building, um, and really trying to, like I said, organize um more in a block-by-block way to keep our our neighborhoods and ourselves and you know, neighbors safe.
SPEAKER_02How do policing and immigration enforcement intersect with the broader political power structures that we are experiencing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So um I think that you know, we've seen law enforcement um be used, uh, you know, designed for and used always, um, and especially now as you know, it's a it's a muscle um for the state, right? It's a muscle of um for to be able to control people, um, particularly black folks, particularly poor folks. Like um, it's the the mechanism by which you know uh uh community members um that are fighting for liberation are you know um suppressed, the threatened, um, you know, and tried to be controlled, right? Uh and so I think, you know, like Trump can carry out this agenda, that administration can uh, you know, the way they carry out this agenda is is through, you know, is through threats, is through violence, is through chaos, and you know, immigrate the way immigration enforcement is playing out now and policing is playing out now is is chaos and it's violent and it's threatening and you know it pushes uh communities into isolation, it uh creates distrust among folks, right? And so um, you know, as a as the you know, the muscle for the state, like um it's yeah, it's used to um to try to keep us quiet and keep us separated.
SPEAKER_02Uh if you controlled the state budget, what would you prioritize?
SPEAKER_00State budget. Um, yeah, I mean, I I think the thing, you know, Pol there is like in regular conversation, constant conversation with community members about what the things are that they need to thrive, that they need to be healthy, they need to feel like stay safe and stable. And I think the, you know, one of the things we're always hearing is is around housing and like safe, affordable, like stable housing is such a key part of like people's ability to like thrive or you know, survive and thrive. Um, so I think, you know, would love to see like increased investments in housing, but also like, you know, we need massive investment in non-police crisis response, um, you know, behavioral health care. Um, and that, you know, that's another thing that like we hear from community members all the time. So um, you know, I would love to see the state not investing so much in criminal or at all in criminalization and policing, um, you know, as their strategy for how they think safety happens in the community.
SPEAKER_02Sure. That makes sense. Um so we know the onslaught of news can be overwhelming and paralyzing, but the best way to get out of that freeze is to take real tangible actions. Um, what are some things that you recommend people to do right now to get involved and to try to kind of move past that?
SPEAKER_00Well, like I said earlier, like authoritarianism like thrives on isolation. And so I think like anything we can do right now to like keep us connected to each other is so fucking critical. Um and I think that you know it's hard. I think you know, I it's hard to like get to know people we don't know. It's hard to get to know our neighbors that we don't know, like those feel like big, you know, um can feel like big scary things. Uh you know, so I think you know, if you can get yourself there to take those actions, like those are important ways of keeping, you know, keeping yourself safe, keeping yourself grounded. Um but like even you know, if it's just limited, like just staying connected to the people you you know already know, like in investing deeper in your friendships, investing deeper in, you know, the places that you um live and work and play, um, you know, are all like really important ways. Um I I can't like emphasize enough. Um, as an extreme introvert, like yeah, like the way I stay grounded is through my people, you know. So um I think staying connected is is what's most critical now.
SPEAKER_02I've definitely found like when I'm showing up to actions and stuff, like the hardest part is walking up to a group of people that you don't know. Yeah. But then the second that you do, like you kind of realize everybody kind of went through that as they walked up, and people are very like happy to meet you and like happy to like be there together and like share that. So absolutely totally agree. Poder does other great work in the community, just not just at this Phoenix City Council. Can you tell us a little bit about um some of the other stuff y'all are working on?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I I kind of talked about this already, but I I do feel like the the most you know the most important work we're doing right now is about um the the community defense, um, the neighborhood defense network that we're building. Um and that's you know that's important because um, you know, like our um our movements need to be more in coordination. Um we're no organization on its own, no individual on their own, like is gonna be the thing that like defeats authoritarianism, you know, is gonna be the thing that you know defeats uh you know uh end state violence, right? Um and so I think you know doing everything we can to um you know bring more people into our movements, uh our organizations, our groups, our you know, formations, whatever we're in, um, you know, doing more to be in coordination. Uh I think, you know, we talk a lot at Poldair about how do we throw like our best punch, right? And um we talk a lot about like that means we need to train up as many people as possible to be ready for the moment when we all like come together and you know are activated to take an action together, right? Um there's uh you know, we've learned a lot from the you know the research um uh from Erica Chenowith that talks about, you know, that you know uh governments and other countries not being able to withstand like the activation of like three and a half percent of a country's population. And you know, a lot of you know, there's um uh you know, a lot of critique of that, and that's fine. But I think like, you know, what we're really taking away from that is we need like a hell of a lot more people. We need to be moving in coordination, and um, we need to be like doing everything we can to train each other up to like meet the moment when those moments like you know open up, right? So um, yeah, I think uh yeah, we're I don't know, we're feeling excited about that work right now.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Um a few years ago, put air in action had a block party campaign in neighborhoods that experienced police violence. Um it sounds like it was an incredible campaign that helped build a sense of community safety, but was also a reminder of how much effort we need to put into creating third spaces. Um, which if you're not familiar, that refers to a space outside of home and work that you is that is safe and free to access. Uh I'm wondering if you have a favorite third space in Phoenix or in Arizona generally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um let's see. That's a good question. I feel like one of the like physical infrastructures I like really feel so grounded in when I go to in Phoenix is is Burton Bar Library, but like I also there's a you know a lot of like fucked up things that happen at Burton Bar with policing and insecurity that you know as like a white person like you know is um I like I don't experience and so uh you know I think it really depends who you are about being able to be, you know, safe in in Burton Bar. But um I I always feel grounded when I go there. Um, but I think you know I know this isn't like tech, I don't know, technically like a definition of of the third space, but like I feel like anywhere I can go with like my core group of people, like whether, you know, that's uh one of our our houses, apartments or whatever, or um, you know, a park or you know, um even like at the polder office, like you know, with with my like people there, like um, like I just feel so like at home and grounded and you know, and and like things feel possible, you know. Um I think it's you know really easy um you know in this time to feel like hopeless and you know like like you know, we're just fucking stuck, right? Yeah and so I'm looking for any place um you know and feel excited about any place where I get to be with my my core um my core group and um you know where we get to be hanging out and laughing and you know and I like I'm a nerd, I spend a lot of time talking about movement and movement history and and find so much joy and resistance and like um like I wanna hear like that's the thing I want to be talking about is like I want to hear how other people in other places are fighting back, how they're winning, how they're you know, doing doing this work to uh to um you know to towards liberation and and um you know I like that brings me like the most joy um is is hearing about those things.
SPEAKER_02So thank you so much for sharing. Yeah. Um are there any upcoming events or actions that the community should be aware of to plug into?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh it's budget season at the city of Phoenix and in many other places. Um so uh for us um that's gonna look like there's a series of budget town halls at the city of Phoenix. And one of the things that we're fighting for that is so critical right now is deportation defense fund. Um we really the city has a$70 million surplus um that they have to figure out how to allocate, and millions of dollars of that, um, at least two million dollars needs to be going to deportation defense. Um it needs to be accessible uh to all people, like regardless of status, um immigration status, citizenship status, and um, you know, uh criminal record. It needs to be um uh yeah, we need to be uh figuring out ways. Um, you know, the city has a responsibility, right? Like they are like creating the conditions for people to be criminalized, for people to be deported, they're arresting people, racially profiling people, right? And they have a responsibility um to uh take care of the people in this city. And so um, you know, we want to see uh what we're advocating for in these budget town halls and and into early May when they'll start voting on the budget is um is deportation defense. So um yeah, please like come out, join us for those. Um the yeah, the first budget vote um I think is May 20th. Uh so you know, we're gonna need everybody there advocating um, you know, for deportation defense and and for the city to keep funding, you know, the things that we actually need to be able to be uh safe and happy and healthy and and thriving.
SPEAKER_02We'll definitely make sure to uplift those dates on our socials. Um so yeah, if you are available in in Phoenix, please make sure to come out for those meetings. Okay, my final question for you is Ben, what do you refuse to be left unsaid?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um yeah, I think that um we have an opportunity right now that like you know, as like fucked up and like hard and devastating as like what's happening in the US is like um you know is having an impact on people in the way that it is, like we also have an opportunity um to build the world like that we want to see on the other side of this, but we have to be doing that now because if we're like you know, just like hoping that the thing on the other side of authoritarianism, you know, is is gonna be different, is gonna like work for all of us, like it's not just gonna happen and we have to be practicing now. Um, because like the reality is is like the US is rooted in white supremacy and anti-blackness and patriarchy, and you know, like does everything it can to help capitalism thrive. And like we have we have this opening as like this form of democracy is like crumbling around us to like build something really fucking cool that works for everybody on the other side. And so um, you know, we need that like means we need everybody participating, you know, in your your local group, organization, formation, whatever, neighborhood, uh, defense committee, um, and uh, you know, finding finding ways to plug in and and like I said like earlier, like we gotta break that isolation. We can't let we can't let authoritarianism like uh uh separate us any further than it already has. And you know, we need everybody, you know, everybody, literally everybody in our movements to be fighting back. So um yeah, uh come come get plugged in.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Um that's such a great point. I think obviously Trump and the the fascists in charge are are seizing their opportunities to make the country look how they want to through their creatings, their creation of chaos, but we also have an opportunity, and I I think that's such an important point about we have to be building those structures and things that we want to see afterwards now. So thank you so much for that. Yeah. Um and thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed the conversation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me.